Transcript – Marc Champagne on Outlier Academy – EP. 48

Please enjoy this transcript of my conversation with Marc Champagne, author of Personal Socrates: Questions That Will Upgrade Your Life from Legends & World-Class Performers. From Episode #48 of Outlier Academy.
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October 20, 2021
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Before writing Personal Socrates, Marc Champagne co-founded the journaling app (KYO) which reached 86.9 million people.
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Please enjoy this transcript of my conversation with Marc Champagne, author of Personal Socrates: Questions That Will Upgrade Your Life from Legends & World-Class Performers. From Episode #48 of Outlier Academy. Transcripts for other episodes can be found here

“You need to understand if you're climbing the right mountain to begin with and understand who you're optimizing to become.” – Marc Champagne


Marc Champagne (@marcchampagne) is author of Personal Socrates: Questions That Will Upgrade Your Life from Legends & World-Class Performers. A self-proclaimed Mental Fitness Strategist, Marc is a speaker and corporate trainer and hosts the top 50 podcast, Behind the Human. Marc previously co-founded the journaling app (KYO) which reached 86.9 million people.



Part One: Marc Champagne, Author of Personal Socrates – Self-Reflection and the Socratic Method

Daniel Scrivner:

Marc, I am super excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for the time and for coming on.


Marc Champagne:

Thank you. I can't wait to dive in with you on all these topics.


Daniel Scrivner:

We're going to spend most of today talking about your book that's coming out called Personal Socrates. And I was thinking quite a bit about the right place to maybe start off this interview. And there's a quote in the beginning that I think is really profound. And it's just this idea that, "At any point we are one question away from a different life." And that felt like a great frame for this conversation. So can you maybe share a little bit of the story behind that sentence, behind that thought?


Marc Champagne:

It's a loaded sentence, definitely. You know a bit of the backstory but for the listeners, essentially what happened in my life was I spent about eight to 10 years in the corporate world in brand management, project management and product management as well. And I love the job, love the people, it's an awesome team. But while I had those jobs and it was moving around in that corporate world, I always had some sort of mental fitness practice, never called it that at that time, that wasn't really a language I was familiar with. Essentially got up earlier, read positive things, tried to prime my mind for the day in its simplest form.


Marc Champagne:

And I'm just sharing this because that one line that you share, I mean, there's a buildup to what led to that realization. And basically what happened, fast forwarding about eight years or so of doing those practices early in the morning. There's eventually a frustration with the digital tools that were available for me when it came to journaling a reflection. At that time, Calm and Headspace for really starting to pick up steam in the mainstream media or market, I should say.


Marc Champagne:

So there was this, I guess, this realization that, okay. Well, it seems like people are open to being guided digitally in some sort of a wellness space, meditation. But there was nothing that existed on the journaling front and especially nothing that really talked about journaling from the narrative that I was seeing at or how I was using it. Because most people would leave comments like, "Oh, you're talking about the 12-year-old girl writing her diary about the boy at school type thing."


Marc Champagne:

And not that there's anything wrong with that but no. I'm talking about people making huge decisions, life and work decisions and they're leveraging a practice like reflection or journaling to do so. And what I was doing is I would take these questions that I would be picking up through blogs and books, and then eventually in podcasts hit the market on podcasts. And then I would reflect on those prompts the next morning, during my mental fitness time.


Marc Champagne:

It got to the point where it was like copy paste and different apps and work process, I'm like, "This is ridiculous. There has to be a better way to do this." The App Store was thriving at that point, there were apps for everything. I flipped my brother-in-law and co-founder of what became [KIO 00:02:45] in email saying, "Hey, here are the frustrations. Do you want to try this out and see if we can build something?" As naive as that sounds right now, but we did.


Marc Champagne:

Eventually I left that corporate job to go all in on this journaling called KYO. Within the first couple of years without any type of paid media, we reached 86.9 million people in terms of App Store impressions. And there's hundreds of thousands of people that were using the product. But ultimately what happened, as much as we had a lot of traction and we had a lot of collaborations, and great experts in brands in there with their content and their prompts, leading people through a practice, our business model was not sound. It needed more time.


Marc Champagne:

We needed more resources. We needed to refine our team and find some different experts, especially on the development front. We had neither of those to continue so we had to delete the app. That's where that quote comes from. Because at that point, it wasn't just deleting the app, it was deleting essentially my identity for the last three years. And at the time I think my son was about two years old. I remember thinking as much as my wife and I were doing everything possible to shield him from any of the stress that we're feeling like, "Well, now what?


Marc Champagne:

What are we going to do next? We're living in one of the most expensive cities in Canada, Toronto. We don't even really like the place that we're living in, we can't afford it. And the backup plan, which was to go back to the industry I had left just did not feel right. Everything in my being said, the work you're doing in for this app, in the space of mental fitness is that's where you need to be. But I just deleted the vehicle that was allowing that to happen.


Marc Champagne:

And this is where it gets to that quote. Essentially, I was starting to go really essentially to deep depression. I've never been in that state before but I remember reflecting thinking, "Wow, this is what it must feel like to hit rock bottom." I can see how easy it would be to slip even further down this road and stay here because I just felt hopeless essentially. Until eventually I started remembering. Well, wait a second. I've had the great pleasure and luxury to interview hundreds of people about their mental fitness and questions. And they're asking a very different set of questions. They're asking progressive questions to pull you out of things like this.


Marc Champagne:

And eventually I landed on this prompt where it was, "What do I want for my life?" And that was the one question that changed my life. Because the alternative was like I said, going deeper and deeper into that hole and losing complete faith and hope. Whereas this question now led to the next and okay, well, who do I need to speak to, to march a little bit forward or do something today? That's the realization. It doesn't matter where you're at in life. What part of the journey you're on, the simple question like, am I happy? You answer yes or no can completely change where you're at right now.


Daniel Scrivner:

I want to talk about mental fitness for a second because use that term. It's not a term I've ever really heard but immediately upon hearing you, I'm like, it's just obvious. It's something that should be much more common and we should be talking about it more. I've struggled myself to come up with a really compelling way to articulate why taking time to reflect is so valuable. Because I feel like today it's the choice for a lot of people.


Daniel Scrivner:

And I feel like I've been in this situation is okay, I've got a staggeringly long to do list and a lot of just generalized anxiety and stress. Do I want to take this time to maybe try to ease that by checking some stuff off my list? Or do I want to take this time to do something that feels valuable but maybe not. I guess I would just start with, why is mental fitness so important? What is your take on why you need to take that time to get clear? Because it's this hidden invisible thing.


Marc Champagne:

Absolutely. It's hidden and invisible but unfortunately the results of not doing any type of mental fitness or having any practice makes everything else you're doing that much harder. In its simplest form. The example that often comes to mind for me is a physical example. Let's say you're envisioning a physical room and you open the door and that room is just jammed floor to ceiling with boxes.


Marc Champagne:

Just for fun let's say that those boxes are full of books, good books. So that whole room is full of probably very valuable knowledge but we can't see the box at the back of the room. There's no path, we can't get through there just like an unorganized library, essentially. That if you can't get there and you can't see the path, then what do you do? And our minds are often clogged like that for a whole host of reasons. There are motions that are clogging things up.


Marc Champagne:

For example, when I was in that state of essentially a survival state. Massive fear, crippling fear to the point where I couldn't really think, thankfully had that prompt to pause that narrative for even microseconds to then be able to chip away at it. But then there are relationships that are in our lives that we all have that were amazing 10 years ago and maybe have fizzled out and that's totally fine, but they're still hanging on or there's something that's eating away. It's like the low grade. I don't want to say annoyance but a low grade stress in our minds that's there. Again, eating up mental capacity.


Marc Champagne:

And then there are just the sheer volume of our work and decisions that we have to make. So when you look at it from that perspective, then all of a sudden, well, how the hell am I supposed to be at my best at home and at work and everything in between, if my mind is so jammed like that.


Marc Champagne:

That's why for me just like physical exercise, you don't have to exercise for three hours a day, but even just starting and building a consistent practice or a routine in your exercise eventually leads to results and we see that. And with mental fitness, it's no different. We'll start seeing that because what happens is then you start feeling way more clear in the decision-making and then all of a sudden opportunities or challenges come up and you know exactly where to go. It's just clear.


Daniel Scrivner:

Yeah. I think it's a big change. I feel like you highlighted there, what I've taken away from all the time I've taken to reflect which is just a real sense of being grounded in being clear on just where I am now, what I'm focused on. And it just takes away a lot of fog and this generalized sense which I think is really common today of just, I think so many people are just really hopped up on adrenaline and stress. That just being able to tamp that down and quiet your mind and be able to focus, I think is really helpful.


Marc Champagne:

Just on the other side of that because there's the processing of emotions and one on clearing it out. But then there's the whole other side of these practices which is celebrating and learning from what you're doing. Even taking a pause on a Friday, mid-afternoon, taking 15 minutes and asking three prompts.


Marc Champagne:

What did I learn this week? What would have changed this week? And what can I celebrate? It's just a beautiful way to A, finish off the week. You clear out all the stuff that's in your mind and then you're fully present with your family. Like you're not stewing on, "I should've did this. I should've did that." You've taken literally 15 minutes and that can dictate basically the next two, three days.


Daniel Scrivner:

And to build on that, I think it would be helpful to flesh out for people what maybe this routine looks like. Because I love the framing, it feels super achievable to do something like, just try to do 15 minutes a day. Do you have any other best practices or any other tips about how to go about, booting up this practice in your life?


Marc Champagne:

Absolutely. The key to this, and I really think any new habits or practices is really finding something that works within your life sounds obvious, but we often myself included. It's not right. We like I have to meditate and then we don't do it.


Marc Champagne:

First thing I think is just being really honest with yourself and taking a look at your day from the moment you wake up to the moment your head hits the pillow. And seeing, okay, well where in there can, Not that you add time but maybe stack on top of while your coffee's brewing your tea is brewing or something like that, where you can layer in one little practice, then that will probably expand over time. Or maybe after you eat lunch, you take 10 or 15 minutes and add in something like this and then that energizes you for the rest of the afternoon.


Marc Champagne:

But the buckets to think about really revolve around three areas, in my opinion. And it's what can I do to learn? So that might be podcasts, reading, audio, books, whatever it is. And for me, it's in the morning, I do most of this in the morning and that could just be three to five pages of whatever book is ongoing.


Marc Champagne:

Then with the learning is the reflecting. And this is where I usually stack in the journaling with the learning, just like I was doing for a decade. And just taking that knowledge that's coming in and writing in the book or writing in a journal to see how it can be applied right now, because then we use it. It goes from information to knowledge that's practical.


Marc Champagne:

Then the third thing is just some sort of movement, whether that's tense, exercise, again, whatever works for you. But here's the thing just because you may not like training for a marathon or running doesn't mean you've ruled out exercise. So same thing, put mental fitness. Just take a moment. The first step, take a moment to list out five or 10 things that you know will put a smile on your face at any moment. And it's all different for all of us.


Marc Champagne:

For me, it's taking a run or doing a Peloton spin class or listening to a positive audio book or podcasts like those things I know immediately, no matter what's happening, can flip my mind into a positive state and then you have a default list. And then you can start working them into your routine, being kind to yourself, not trying to overdo it and shame yourself for not over-indexing on these practices essentially.


Daniel Scrivner:

I love that. I think that's super helpful. And the thing that I would just add is, I don't know why it took me 30 plus years to figure this out. What I eventually stumbled on was, anytime I wanted to do something when I was in my '20s, I would set the bar just insanely high. It'd be like, if I'm going to work out, my workout has to be 90 minutes. I need to go through this whole crazy workout system that I found online and follow it to a tee.


Daniel Scrivner:

In my '30s, part of this was just having a family and you just have things changed in your life, but I really moved to, no, my goal now is just to get into the gym. For some period of time, I set the bar is like low as 15 minutes, five, 15, 20 minutes to go to the gym. I think that's a great place. Because what often happens is one that makes it achievable to where you're actually just have some momentum.


Daniel Scrivner:

Then what I always find which is, I shouldn't be that surprising is if I just get in there and do it 15 minutes becomes 45 minutes super easily, or it becomes 30 minutes or I just upped the intensity. And so anyways, when it comes to I think a practice like this, I love that idea of drop the bar to the floor and just try to spend some time writing something down, answering one question can be five minutes.


Marc Champagne:

Well, and just having that list. For me, again, keeping mind, it's been essentially over a decade but I prioritize about an hour and a half early morning, which includes physical and mental fitness, the whole thing. And within that time though, it's not rigid. It's just that okay. For those first 30 minutes, there's going to be something related to mental fitness in there.


Marc Champagne:

When I wake up that might be reading, that might be journaling that might be doing Wim Hoff, breath work, some visualization, whatever it is. But that's been new for me. And it's only been the last, I'd say couple of years but man, does it ever take a huge amount of pressure off on sense of, again, I don't have to meditate. I don't have to journal today. I'm going to do something and I'm going to do something that truly, I feel like I need right now today.


Daniel Scrivner:

Yeah. I love that. I want to ask a little bit about your podcast Behind The Human. And I think part of it is it would be great. I think if you could just generally share a little bit more of the backstory there and some of the people you've interviewed. But my one specific question is, you talked about in the beginning the progressive questions that high performers would ask themselves.


Daniel Scrivner:

And something I wanted to ask you is I think for a lot of people, when they think about elite athletes or really successful entrepreneurs, I think people think that they're have this really harsh dialogue with themselves, they're always really pushing themselves. And what I've found is yes, there's some of that there. They are going after something big, they do need to push themselves but they do it a lot of times are mostly from a gentle, loving place. I'd love it if you could talk a little bit about some of the questions and some of the ways that they think and how that maybe influences your approach to mental fitness.


Marc Champagne:

I think that the biggest lessons I've picked up from the podcast and that have essentially translated into the book as well, is just typically there are questions or practices that are either helping you become more clear, which is usually part one in the process as James clear says, and he's one of the profiles in the book.


Marc Champagne:

But you need to understand if you're climbing the right mountain to begin with and understand who you're optimizing to become, for example. And once that gets clear, which for me was what do I want for my life? That was that question that helped then. Who am I? There's so many different questions like that that can help.


Marc Champagne:

But then from there, most of these people then get real intentional with what they're doing, how they're thinking, the people that are surrounding themselves with. And that's all again, supporting that initial work on clarity. So for Kobe Bryant, for example, one of the profiles in the book, the goal or the clarity seeking exercise, I don't want to say simple. But it was very clear for him. He wants to win an NBA championship.


Marc Champagne:

When he's getting up an hour before the team to add in another workout at four in the morning, he's human like the rest of us and also does not want to get up when the alarm goes off, and has that whole internal negotiation that I'm sure everyone listening myself included have had in the past. It's so amazing how fast we can internally negotiate the state under the covers.


Marc Champagne:

Because I remember doing this when I was writing the book because I was writing the book really early in the morning. So I had other work strategy work and whatnot. And I'll never forget the one time. I think I went to bed a little bit later. So then right away, as soon as I got up, oh, sleep's really important. I know that if I don't get enough sleep, then that's going to affect the rest of my day so I need to sleep an extra 20 minutes. Well, that's going to throw off my writing but I can write maybe in the afternoon, I know have an open slot, I'll block it off. The whole fast.


Marc Champagne:

And next thing you know, life happens and I don't write. Because meetings come up, calls whatever, and I'm at the end of the day. And that whole plan was blown to the water where I could have just paused it and reflected on just like Kobe reflected on the overall goal. The clarity there.


Marc Champagne:

Well, I have to write a certain amount of words today because there's an objective to get to a total amount for the book at a certain time so I'm just going to get up. I then use something like a Mel Robbins tactic of five, four, three, two, one rise, which can also cut anxiety, if you're struggling to get up from bed.


Marc Champagne:

So anyway, all to say, like with the podcast and it's very much related in the book, the goal is to show that it's not just meditation instructors or Yoga teachers that are doing these types of practices, it's all walks of life. From Michelin star chefs, to athletes, to executives, to billionaire entrepreneurs, to designers and developers. Everyone has their own take on this stuff and we can learn from those things.


Marc Champagne:

And then again, if we're prioritizing some time then, oh yeah, that makes sense. The one from Maya Angelou, I can use that because I have a presentation coming up and I can leverage her practice. And just building up our toolkit so then we can carry pick what we need in any given time.


Daniel Scrivner:

I'd love to transition and dive a little bit deeper into the book. And I thought a great place to start would be to talk a little bit about the title. Because the set it up and then I'll see what you can add on top of this. But what I thought was really profound about the book is the title is Personal Socrates. The meaning behind Socrates is really following the Socratic method, where you're really trying to ask these reflective questions just to force yourself to think and that, that gets you this clarity.


Daniel Scrivner:

I think what's fascinating about the book is yes, there are profiles. So the books basically in three parts, which we'll talk about in a second. There are profiles in each of those parts of these notable figures throughout history and just incredible people. And then in each of these profiles, there's also these prompts that you can ask yourself. So I'd love to start with just talking about the Socratic method. What is it and why is it profound and important?


Marc Champagne:

I smiled just [inaudible 00:19:13]. If you would ask me even three years ago that if I'd be describing the Socratic method, I'd laugh you out of the room because here's the backstory on the title. When it first came up, I actually hated it. I'm like Personal Socrates. I'm not a philosopher. That's not how I see myself. And I think of Socrates, I think of ancient, thousands of years back type thing. But then when I really started to dig into the method, I got real curious.


Marc Champagne:

Because how it came up as I was speaking with Joey, who's the Founder of Baronfig who's publishing the book and it's just explaining the book concept and then also explaining what I do on the podcast and how my own reflection has evolved. And he's like, oh yes. So you're asking a question and then question after question and he's like, "This is Socratic method." I said, "What? The Socratic what?" I know of Socrates, like most people high level.


Daniel Scrivner:

You know the name.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. Exactly. And I know, oh yeah, that's the guy that asks a lot of questions. And that's kind of it. When I started digging into it and seeing, okay, there are six different question types, essentially the idea is that you're going to seek more clarity with these questions and you're going to challenge these assumptions and you're going to keep probing and all of this.


Marc Champagne:

Then the thing that really lit me up was, wow, there's so many of us good majority of us that are actually using the Socratic method often. And we don't even really know it. And especially all the people on my podcast had some flow into that space, haven't really recognized that. So then I was wondering why is that? Because I can't even remember all the six question types and that was the problem.


Marc Champagne:

How can we take something like the Socratic method that's been around from the beginning of time almost. And that's been used highly in the academic setting. How can we simplify that so that we don't even really think about the process but we know we're doing it and we're getting the value. And that's where the whole idea of the book structure of. Okay, well, we can all remember that we should probably get clear first and then from there we're going to be intentional.


Marc Champagne:

That's all you have to remember because if you do those two things, then the third part of the book and the third part of the grouping of the questions is really about unlocking opportunity. Because now going back to that physical room example, now you can see the next steps forward.


Daniel Scrivner:

You have a quote in the book from Socrates that I love, which is "I can not teach them anything, I can only make them think." Which I love because one that's like the antithesis of a book in many ways because most books you're just trying to learn. And I think some of the things you'd brought up earlier of, is you're reading really thinking about deliberately, how can I apply this today? I feel like that's a super power because otherwise my sense is a lot of people read a lot of books and that information is quickly filters out their mind or has a decay curve and they start forgetting it at a certain point.


Daniel Scrivner:

And so some one of the ways I've thought about books is almost like figures or voices that I can have in my life. And when I go and open up another book and reread it again, it's like having another conversation with that friend, that's kind of pointing me in the right direction. Because this is a really unique book in that you are learning but it's also like homework for you to go and take. Was that difficult to work through? Or was it difficult for you to be like, yeah, let's do this, that makes sense?


Marc Champagne:

Well, again, it comes back to the morning practice that I've had for years now. And essentially what the app was trying to do as well is meeting people with questions at a place in their life where they resonate, everyone's different. And that's why there's such a varying group of people, different industries, different time periods and so forth because we're all at a different point in our lives. We all have different things going on.


Marc Champagne:

If you go into the book or any of these types of practices, prompt base, I just encourage people to follow their intuition because that's probably where you need the most guidance or the most stillness, let's just say in a reflective practice. So that part always made sense because just sticking to books in general is something that I've always struggled with is just the classic. I want to read as many books as possible this year, and I don't know how that started exactly why.


Marc Champagne:

And I mean, as we speak, I probably have about three books on the go, but I'm trying to read them slowly and again, as I'm going through a page. Okay. For me my mind just works in terms of questions now. So usually everything gets flipped into a question. Okay, well, if they're talking about happiness and this and that, or if they're talking about strategic thinking, well, am I thinking like that? Am I truly happy?


Marc Champagne:

What are the elements of my life that are driving my happiness? What does that mean to me? That's why I really like the idea of providing context, some teaching around this stuff, showing that it's been around from the beginning of time and there are different use cases to applied but then get into this. Okay, we'll try this. Let's jump in a little bit. And again, the idea of these profiles are two to four pages.


Marc Champagne:

And just because I'm just finishing the audio book, they're seven to nine minutes long type thing from a voice perspective. So it's not this massive time commitment, which again, for me, it's whatever I can do to help people start or have something. And if you've already started, maybe this is an upgrade to how you're thinking about questions and just questions in general and be more curious.


Marc Champagne:

Because again, all of this stuff, if you're doing it consistently, just like an Olympic athlete is doing and just like someone training physically, then when you're at the event i.e life, we can rely on our training, just happens naturally. We think better, we're happier. We're showing up with an energy that's infectious from others and it just makes life so much better.


Daniel Scrivner:

Yeah. You touched on something interesting there, which I loved, which was, I think it's at the end of the introduction before you began to get into some of these profiles. There's an explicit note to take it slowly and do one profile at a time, which I love. It relates to some of the things we've been talking about but you just going back to helping people start, or my idea earlier of just how do you lower that part of the floor?


Daniel Scrivner:

I think one of the big insights or ahas, that I've had there is I spent a lot of my time doing investing work. And so I often am thinking about compounding or just pondering on it. And so that's the way that I think about growth in aha moment I've had, is I think for a lot of people it's like, let me over-index on quantity or volume and let me under index on consistency.


Daniel Scrivner:

But really all that compounding is like, you can quantity doesn't matter. In fact, quantity is totally fine if it's a really small amount that you're putting in every single day. What really matters is that consistency of just engaging with it again and again and again because that's where that compounding really happens, where you're eliminating gaps and you're making that just super easy and fluid. Does that spark any ideas for you? Is there any way to build off of that?


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. Well, Immediately who comes to mind is just James Clear and his work around habit formation and creating the systems to support your habits. Like I said, he has a profile in the book just because I've interviewed him but in his actual book, which I've referenced often in there and I highly encourage others to take a look, but his whole concept is just around being 1% better. That's achievable and that compounds to your point.


Marc Champagne:

If we can take those micro steps and again, as something as simple as if your coffee's brewing, you set a one-word intention for the day. How do I want to feel? Or how do I want to show up for myself and others today? One word, energized or motivated. You're priming your mind already before anything has started in the day. And again, that's just one small micro step but that just keeps compounding. Again, I think just to find the time and the right places to inject this stuff and really spend some time at identifying the practices or the tools and whatnot that resonate with you the most. And just start there.


Daniel Scrivner:

I'd love to talk about some of the people in the book because you have figures that everyone's going to recognize. James clear is I think an example there, Kobe Bryant, Robin Williams, or other big names. But you also have names that I had never come across. Probably my favorite profile so far is Mikael Cho who founded Unsplash and just like really wonderful profile as I was reading it, I was literally like, "Wow, how have I never come across any of this?" And a really powerful question or prompt which was, how can I be clearer in fewer words? which depending on your personality type. I think for me, that really resonated.


Daniel Scrivner:

And another example in the book is Chip Conley, who I'm sure I've read articles about him. At some point he was the head of hospitality, I'm probably butchering that title. But generally was that Airbnb for four years still serves as a special advisor and has a background in hospitality that had a fascinating question. How can I be the most curious person in the room? What do you think for you and I doing what we do is we definitely relate to.


Daniel Scrivner:

So I guess my question for you would be, what are one or two, what are a couple of your favorite profiles? And then which profiles were the hardest to work through and put down and get to the aha moment or the question?


Marc Champagne:

First of all, the intent of it was hard to pick obviously. Because at first the idea was, okay, let's take a look at the 200 or so people have interviewed over the last four years and pick a diverse group of individuals in different industries and whatnot and backgrounds, and write the profiles because I have the content from the interviews. But then to your point, not all those names are recognizable, which I think is fine as long as it's balanced.


Marc Champagne:

But what about just any names? Because at the Kobe Bryant's and Robin Williams or Coco Chanel, for example, anyone would recognize those names. Those were really hard to write because I'm not writing a biography on any of those people. And there have been for most of them incredible authors that have written thick books on their lives and their learning.


Daniel Scrivner:

Like 500 pages.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which blows my mind. I really had to go in and I had to essentially follow the flow of the book and the practice of doing enough research, where I felt clear enough to then move to the intentionality part, which is the outline. And think, okay, if it's Maya Angelou or Robin Williams, what am I picking up from the research that I can throw a mental fitness lens on? Some of those questions they're directly from them. Many are inspired just from how they thought or what their work was all about, but then it's mixed together with their stories and whatnot.


Marc Champagne:

But it was tough because like I said, I was trying to keep the profile somewhat short and follow somewhat of a structure so that everything was consistent and was approachable people. How do you summarize thoughts and advice from someone like a Robin Williams in four pages? Later on in his case specifically, I remember I had to take a couple breaks the way his life ended is just controversial and when anyone takes their life, and I didn't want to write something to try to pass judgment on that or for others to start thinking along those lines but really what can we gain from Robin's life?


Daniel Scrivner:

It felt like a celebration. So I think you've got struck the right note there.


Marc Champagne:

Thank you. But there were pauses there. And again, I just had to listen to what was going on and say, "You know what? I'm going to take a break here and I'm going to outline another one and I'll come back to this one once it felt clear enough." It was an interesting process. Obviously glad you're getting some value out of that.


Marc Champagne:

But the idea again is just to have a really diverse group and really land wherever you're at in your life. And then you can evolve. You can pick this thing up in six months or whatever and there should be something that resonates like your favorite question now, if I've done my job properly should be different in a month from now.


Daniel Scrivner:

Well, totally. Well my answer will be extremely different six months from now or nine months from now than it is today, which is I think just as valuable. Do you have a favorite prompt or question? It can be from anyone in the book, but is there one that is like really resonating for you at the moment?


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. The one that resonates the most now just given what I'm doing and just interviews like this and whatnot, it's kind of a combination of Cal Fussman, which is how can I ask the best questions? And Chip Conley, which is how can I be the most curious person in the room? Because they both link back to presence. And for Chip Conley for example, to be the most curious person in the room, you also happen to be the most present person in the room.


Marc Champagne:

For interactions like this, I just get so much energy from having conversations, especially, you and I really jive well together, we've had a few calls before. The best I can do is just be super focused on your questions and our conversation and not be thinking of, "Oh, what may he ask next? Or what's next on the calendar, for example?" And just be really, really dialed in. Because then, and this is where it links to Cal Fussman profile. When you can do that, then you can trust your mind will pull the right answers or we'll pull the right thoughts when they're needed for example.


Daniel Scrivner:

It's so interesting hearing you say that because I'm suddenly just realizing that like the times where I've felt the most present, I've also felt the most, I've no anxiety, I'm just totally in the moment I'm super relaxed and it feels almost like flowy like a flow state, which is interesting. Because I think for a lot of people, there's just this idea that being present, it's almost like you just need to not blink. Yes.


Daniel Scrivner:

How can you just take all of this energy and just make sure that it's on that person. But it's really not that it's just about being there, being in the moment and just letting things be without any expectations or thoughts or nerves or anxiety.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. This is where the practice has helped. If you're journaling and you're writing about details and you're noticing the subtleties of your life or what's going on, you're training your mind to see those details. If you're taking a walk and you're taking a 10 or 15 minute walk without an audio book or a podcast or music, and you're literally just paying attention to your environment, well, that trains your minds then to see the detail when you're looking at a slide deck. Or someone's pitching you an investment and you can see the, okay. Well, this makes sense, that doesn't make sense, I've been there before. I can see the nuances there.


Daniel Scrivner:

I want to ask one question around the process for writing this book. I think just something I would highlight is one, the book is beautiful. If anyone has any expectations around what to expect from Baronfig, I feel like this book exceeds it. It definitely feels like a Baronfig product it's beautifully made, it's beautifully printed, it comes in a special box. Anyway, so it's just beautifully done. But when you and I were talking before, this is your first book.


Daniel Scrivner:

You've certainly done a lot of interview preps, you do plenty of writing but it's very different to go about creating a book. I think something that was really profound when we were talking before is just the ahas you had and how challenging it was to get the feedback from your editor to like, just really focused on quantity first and then focus on quality. I would love it if you could just take that and expand on that and talk about just lessons learned in the experience of writing the book.


Marc Champagne:

Well, so that exact example, It's shown up in other areas in my life since, and just again, being okay with that discomfort of essentially starting, let's just call it that. Starting and writing in this case, it was writing everything that was on my mind or drawing the connections from the research that initially came up without really trying to fine tune it. And then you can do that as well if I'm preparing a keynote or a presentation or something, like just get it all out there, then you can massage it and refined.


Marc Champagne:

But I think something that's played over and others, my work in life since writing the book is just the idea of again, surrounding yourself with people you really trust and that are experts in different spaces. I don't know if I've ever told Joey from Baronfig this, but knowing their brand and what they put out, I knew they would not let me deliver a garbage quality product. It doesn't line up with their brand.


Marc Champagne:

So there was a confidence there that, yeah, even though right now, we're really working through content and what felt like garbage eventually it's going to get to a polish state. And I'm going to be really proud of it because there are going to be really proud of it.


Marc Champagne:

And same thing with my editor and just instead of stewing and stewing, I would send her text be like, listen, "I just need five or 10 minutes just to chat through some things. Do you mind jumping on the call?" And often it had nothing to do with the writing and had everything to do with reassurance that listen, what you're feeling right now is exactly what every first time author writer feels. You were not alone in this process. It's totally fine. You can accept it. Just here's what I've seen that you can do to move through these things.


Marc Champagne:

And again, I had Baronfig cue cards at the bottom of my monitor, essentially. It's about quantity, not quality or at times what I needed when I was trying to polish, was write as if you're writing or speaking to a friend. These were all just little suggestions from my editor but again, just reminding myself of these little things. Because we forget and your mind starts to fill up. So rinse and repeat on the practices, clear out, prime your mind with the stuff, and then you can move forward.


Daniel Scrivner:

As a designer, my background was in design. I did that for 15 plus years and still do a lot of that work today. But I still remember a really formative experience early on in my career was I was at Apple. I was a junior designer on the team when I first started. And it was the first time in my life that design for a lot of people feels like, think about something for a little while then take the best idea in your mind and just move forward with that. And in Apple that was not at all the approach. The approach was very much, we don't know what's the best ideas and we're going to actually leave a lot of time to throw out a lot of different ideas and then we're going to triangulate between those.


Daniel Scrivner:

And so I just remember there was this period of say three or six months where I felt like the lesson I was learning is just the benefit of continuing to throw out new ideas, without any attachment or any judgment. It is really challenging because I think with all of us, our first thought whenever we're creating something, it can mean writing, tweeting, whatever is the voice. What are people going to think of this? How could this get misinterpreted? And what do I think of it? Is it good? Is it bad? And it really is like, just drop all of that. That can be a separate phase and it is really helpful to just have to be two separate phases. So it's interesting.


Marc Champagne:

Well, and being okay with, I guess that time and letting things said and marinate and whatnot, that was the process with the book cover. Joey was the one that did the design and man amount of covers that came through. I was like, I don't-


Daniel Scrivner:

I'm sure.


Marc Champagne:

I don't think so or yes. And then it finally got to the point where there was, felt like, oh, there's a concept behind here. And we got to that but it took some serious time.


Daniel Scrivner:

So this book, has been one of the most profound books I feel like I've come across in a while. Just because rather than just something that can be read, it really feels something that you should use and you can apply. And it just feels incredibly practical in a wonderful way. One question that I wanted to ask is, what is your hope at the end of the day for people read the book? Is there a message you would just leave everyone with at the end of this conversation?


Marc Champagne:

The biggest thing is I think to go into a book like this, just kind to yourself and try to drop any type of self judgement, just go in open and ready to explore. Because when I first jumped in to these practices of mental fitness, I never would have imagined all of the different areas that you can go down. It's not just journaling, there's so many different things we can do. And again, depending on where we're at some will be relevant, some will not be then so forth.


Marc Champagne:

So for me, the greatest gift that I could get is knowing that someone landed on at least one prompt or profile that really paused the autopilot of life or work, and stimulated some reflection that unlocked clarity and unlocked some intentionality. Then because of that, not only is that person feeling better and feeling and showing up better but there's a ripple effect to that, of what the people and the products they may be working on or whatever they're doing, that energy is there.


Marc Champagne:

Because we all know, when you're feeling good and things are flowing, people start calling, opportunities, show up. It's just, you like to be around people like that and it's infectious. So if I can have just a small drop in helping whoever's on the other side of those pages get to that point in their hardest times or in just okay times, it doesn't matter. That makes me smile.


Daniel Scrivner:

Yeah. I think that's a wonderful goal. When does the book come out and where can people get it? Because I know for instance that the audio book is not out yet because it did try to look for that. So just timing on when people can order the book and when people can order the audio book.


Marc Champagne:

The official release date for everything is October 19th. That's hardcover, ebook. The ebook is up right now as we speak for pre-order on Amazon, the audio book should be up within the next couple of days for the same thing. And again, Baronfig, you can obviously order the hardcover directly. I'll have all the links just to make it super easy just at my site, which is behindthehuman.com. As we're recording this right now, within the next couple of days basically all the pre-orders will open up.


Marc Champagne:

And if you do it through Baronfig, just we have a little bit more control of the system versus Amazon, but there's some mental fitness guides that have written up that are downloadable right away for the pre-orders. There's also going to be a Q and A with me on launch week as well. You get access to basically the first chapter in the first couple profiles immediately until the book officially releases on the 19th.


Daniel Scrivner:

Well, I would highly recommend everyone listening get the book. This is a fantastic book. Thank you so much for taking the two years to write this and put this together. And it's just been an incredible conversation. So I just really appreciate the time Marc.


Marc Champagne:

Thanks for your energy. I'm lit up. I really appreciate the conversation and fantastic questions.




Bonus Marc's Habits, Influences, and Life Lessons – Marc Champagne, Author of Personal Socrates

Daniel Scrivner:

Marc. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's wonderful to have you.


Marc Champagne:

I can't wait. The energy is always lit up with you, so let's do this.


Daniel Scrivner:

This should be a lot of fun. We try to keep this conversation to around 20 minutes. So it'd be a little bit faster pace and we'll ask you the same 12 questions we ask every guest. Are you ready?


Marc Champagne:

12 questions. Okay. Go for it.


Daniel Scrivner:

The first one. What have you been excited or fascinated about recently? Big question.


Marc Champagne:

There's so much. The thing that comes to mind the most to be honest is just the willingness and all the dialogue around people actually taking their mental health and mental fitness seriously. That not being the strange, what are you talking about meditating or journaling? People are open to speaking about this stuff which to me I just see, "Wow. Now there's a lot of possibility here." If we can really rock our internal empire, then everything exterior wise benefits from that.


Daniel Scrivner:

I think the openness around mental health, it feels like that's changed dramatically over the last couple of years, which has been a wonderful thing.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. 100%.


Daniel Scrivner:

Next question. I'm really excited to hear this. What are your superpowers and how have you harnessed those strengths?


Marc Champagne:

I love it. Super power. Well. I'm looking, I'm just looking through the class here. I've got my five-year-old drew this little Superman image and he colored the Superman's hair gray.


Daniel Scrivner:

Okay. There we go. It's you.


Marc Champagne:

I love it. Superman for me though, the thing that lights me up the most is leaving people with more energy after conversation than when they came in. And I get the same thing in return from a lot of people and there's nothing better than that at least for me, because then you can't put a price on that feeling good.


Marc Champagne:

So I try to do that as much as possible so that no matter what I'm talking about, whether it's mental fitness or if it's some sort of practice or something in between, that hopefully at least the other person's listening or they're engaged because the energy is infectious. And that's something that even before getting into this work, even in the corporate world of things in delivering presentations, I might not always be right on strategies and figures and this and that but I'll hopefully at least grab your attention to think.


Daniel Scrivner:

I love the bar of your goal at the end of each meeting is to leave just everybody in the room in a better place as opposed to kind of energy drained. Because I'm very similar. And I feel like whenever I have one of those meetings, it's like a gift. I typically see that-


Marc Champagne:

For sure. For sure. And part of that strategy, the opening prompt of my podcast, which every guest gets is who are you? And there's a double meaning behind that or double objective, I should say. The first one is just to avoid job titles and give people a sense of who that person is.


Marc Champagne:

But the bigger one for me is if that person's never thought of a question like that, I hope that at the end of our conversation there's some thought process there, or there's some reflection. And nothing would make me smile more than the guest or that person's getting a little bit more post conversation Just from one question.


Daniel Scrivner:

On the flip side, what have you struggled with and how have you improved or worked around those things?


Marc Champagne:

I struggled with trusting the journey at the very beginning of leaving a very, what I didn't know at the time, very secure life in a space where my job was pretty secured, even though companies were going through layoffs and stuff like that. So at times it didn't feel like that, but in retrospect now being on my own and it's entrepreneurial world, it's a hell of a lot more secure, let's just say.


Marc Champagne:

Then I started to really realize that, wow, I've really been conditioned to be on this program path essentially, which is totally fine. I'm not saying that that is wrong. But when I came out of it and then into another world where that didn't exist but I still tried to replicate that feeling, that's where I think there's a bit of a problem, at least for me.


Marc Champagne:

Then it wasn't until essentially following one of practicing and preaching when it comes to mental fitness to get to the point of, you know what? I know I'm on the right path, I've set a really smart plan, the best plan I can. I just need to trust the journey, I need to treat my mental fitness and mental health as a priority and then I'll see the right path forward. Because then you become comfortable. Or I would say I'm excited for the uncertainty that lies ahead because it's opportunity. Whereas not long ago, I feared that uncertainty.


Daniel Scrivner:

I love that. Something I've reflected on similarly is that every accomplishment starts with this leap into the unknown one. It requires a leap. There's no easy path down, you just need to take that leap and bet on yourself. It's interesting to reflect on that. What habits have you experimented with that have had a positive impact on your life and performance? So this could be things that you do today, things you just try to do that maybe you're occasionally good at.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. Of course. I would say the biggest one has been implementing a breath work practice within my routine. And just because you can feel the immediate physical effects specifically, I'm just following Wim Hoff's sequence of breaths, essentially three rounds of in and out breaths, 30 breaths each, some breath holds and stuff like that. Now I'm getting to the point where I did it this morning, which I'm stacking in other practices. On the breath holds, I'm looping in a visualization of either how I want the day to go or a big presentation or event or just goals in general.


Marc Champagne:

But just taking that time where at one point you probably get up to two, three minutes, if not more in terms of a breath hold and while I'm sitting there, my mind is putting together the puzzle pieces. And then when I'm done that practice, I'm really primed, physically prime. My body's oxygenated and my mind is also rolling in the right direction. So that's been a big one for me.


Daniel Scrivner:

Is there an app that you work with or I guess how'd you learn about that? I know of Wim Hoff, I guess just haven't gone down that particular rabbit hole yet.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. Well, you're about to, I just knowing you now I feel like you're going to be on this for sure. I started with Kevin Rose's app Oak meditation because he's got a section in there that has breath work and it's really short stuff, which is awesome. I think the longest you can do one of those sessions is five minutes and 30 seconds or something. I started with that and started to really realize just in between meetings or podcasts, just to reset essentially. I'd wow, that's powerful stuff.


Marc Champagne:

And then Wim feel like maybe about two years ago or so he was really on a podcast circuit. And I downloaded his app, which is good but he also just has a YouTube channel where that's what I've been using now. There's I think there's one of the videos has something like 33 million views so clearly kind of everyone's doing the same thing. You just put it on, there's no ads running and he's guiding you through and you can also pause the video if you want to extend your breath, hold for example, then just restart it. So I've been doing that.


Marc Champagne:

But I would challenge people because I always laugh at myself when you're doing it by yourself, you're essentially supposed to do about 30 big breaths in and out. And I'm always amazed at how distracted our minds are. This mind is sometimes almost nearly impossible to actually count 30 times or 30 breaths.


Marc Champagne:

Every now and then I share that because I skip using the YouTube video just to check in with myself, to see it's a bit of a sanity check on how much is floating around in my mind because if I can't count to 30, I'm probably maxed out somewhere. So it's just a nice temperature check.


Daniel Scrivner:

No, that's really smart. And we will link to the YouTube channel as well as that YouTube video. I'll go and dig that up. I'll put that in the show notes. That sounds incredible. On the health side, what is your approach to diet, exercise and sleep and how have those things evolved over time? And you can just focus on one, you can share just any broad views but just curious for your thoughts and some of your practices around health.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. The last 12 months have been probably the biggest shifts in health that I've ever had in my life. And I'm happy to say it's because of questions, essentially. Just questioning whether what I'm doing and I'll share a specific example, the medication that I was on. Is there something? Does this feel right? Is this really the right path? And asking those questions and then linking up with the people that can help.


Marc Champagne:

In my case, straight out of university, I was put on these PPIs, these heartburn medications. Basically for over 15 years, been on this medication and not because of my diet, it's not that out of control that I'm eating Popeyes chicken every night and type thing. But it was to the point, if I didn't take this pill every day, even just water or milk or something would fire up this reflex and chest pains as if I was having a heart attack. And for literally over a decade, I moved a lot so that means we changed family physicians several times as well.


Marc Champagne:

Not one person ever said, you know what? "Should we try to get you off these things? You're pretty young guy. I mean, maybe it's not the right approach." Until I finally started working with these two physicians out in Houston, Texas. Two MDs that are anesthesiologist by training, Thrive Performance Medicine, it's called. And they got into integrative medicine because they were just tired of the bandaid solution to a lot of the healthcare that's out there right now and started asking questions.


Marc Champagne:

Within six months of adjusting diet, really looking at gluten, really looking at processed carbs and then some supplementation while I transitioned off those medications, zero symptoms, nothing. It is incredible because it's shocking and there's so many diseases out there, chronic disease that I really think are A, reversible and preventable and I've seen it with working with those docs. But if we don't ask the questions and again, coming back to our longer form interview, we're on the autopilot and just keep going, change doesn't happen. So anyway, I feel great because of that.


Daniel Scrivner:

I'm glad we live in a time where integrative medicine is starting to become more and more common. The number of people that I know that I've talked to about that, that have resolved similar things. I remember talking with someone last year who had found out just crazy stuff. He basically went to more of a holistic integrative doctor and found out that he had yeast in his body and mold in his body.


Daniel Scrivner:

And the mold came because he used to work in construction and used to do demolition work and just like one the amazing stuff that gets in your body and can stay there. And then two, that all that stuff is reversible or fixable or improvable. And it's just with the less easy stuff. Like you have to put in more effort with diet, exercise and sleep. But then I said it's good.


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. That becomes part of your habit. One last thing, I just on the health side just because I feel like everyone in the world, if they have access to do this, at least for one month, they should. Is to pop on a continuous glucose monitor for at least a month and just see how different. And it was just eye-opening to me to see the response and glucose for what I was eating but the way I was eating in terms of combination, how exercise, how meditation even just doing the 10 minute meditation would drop my glucose response to foods. It was eye-opening. And I say, everyone try it because we're all individual whereas a banana could fire up my glucose in someone else that has the reverse effect


Daniel Scrivner:

Levels, which we did an interview with as an incredible company in that vein that I know we both have some experience with. On the idea side, what books and podcasts have had a striking impact on the way you think.


Marc Champagne:

For sure, Tim Ferriss podcast, is Tim Ferriss Show. That one I'm always intrigued with the people that have come on and the way he interviews people. Rich Roll is another one that is a legend in my mind in terms of his story and how he interviews people and the mix of people. A lot of the health questions have come up because of that show for me.


Marc Champagne:

And then books, I'd say probably the one that's influenced me the most from a mindset and mental fitness standpoint and the one that I gravitate towards, if I have any time to even just read one page and know that the value of that on one page is going to be top level, and it's Robin Sharma. And his work, The 5 AM Club, he talks a lot about that. I just got his new book. It's the Hero Manifesto. Can't see, it's the books backwards.


Daniel Scrivner:

Will find that on LinkedIn.


Marc Champagne:

But yeah, it's good because the way he writes, they're very digestible chunks of knowledge and content that even if you read one paragraph there's stuff in there that you can apply right now.


Daniel Scrivner:

Yeah. That's amazing. Agreed on a Tim Ferriss on ritual rituals is something I discovered last year and went down a little bit of that rabbit hole and yeah, his style. And it's so interesting to me too that the same guests can go on. For the best host, they can all talk to the same guest and they all have very different equally awesome conversations. And I feel like that's such an interesting skill.


Marc Champagne:

Well, another one that comes to mind actually, and this just happened last week. So Cal Fussman his show, and I think we talked about him because he's in the book. But here's a perfect example. I think anyone that's listened to any podcast in the last six to 12 months has probably heard Matthew McConaughey on a show. Sure enough, Cal Fussman has latest episode drops, it's Matthew McConaughey.


Marc Champagne:

You know what? I've already heard a few of those interviews. His stuff is awesome, his book is stunning as well but it was Cal Fussman. I haven't heard a Cal Fussman interview yet. And to your point, I put it on and I left there feeling really, really jazzed up and learned some stuff. And it's just you're right, a good host can really bring it to their own essentially.


Daniel Scrivner:

Well, I'm going to download that as soon as we wrap this interview. On the tool side, what tools do you use? And these can be things to manage your work, your tasks, your time but just tools. And these can be physical or digital but just things that you use that you've grown attached to.


Marc Champagne:

Well, ironically, we were talking about this before we hit record, but Notion. I basically set up a page it's called a LifeWiki. And on the top of that page, I have my objective, I have some affirmations in terms of the way I want to prime my mind in the morning. So I literally read that one little section every single morning.


Marc Champagne:

Then right under there, I have pages within that, that main Wiki that are related to either my podcast, the book, the work and it's just quick references. So I live right in there. Then I organize essentially my top three items for the day right there and check them off. And everything is in one spot, it's organized, works for me.


Daniel Scrivner:

It's amazing that it's all in one tool. That's a unique answer. But it is amazing if you're interested, that is a fascinating rabbit hole to go down and we can try to find some resources and link them in the show notes. But the number of people I've come across that have just done some insane landing page or webpage and Notion is there's some really cool examples.


Marc Champagne:

Like I said, I've been using it. And then I was on Mindvalley podcast last night and the host there, he's like, "You've got to see my Notion." I've got my whole podcast set up through here so we use screen-sharing. And first thing I did this morning was because I have my podcasts in there as well, but there's just so much you can do that to your point.


Marc Champagne:

I think if you can find some templates of what not just to see what's possible, it's unbelievable. Because now literally within 15, 20 minutes of just reorganizing that podcast page for me, I feel like I've just upped my organizational game and freed up an incredible amount of time in terms of the efficiencies from recording to post-production, stuff like that.


Daniel Scrivner:

And kudos to Notion for building a tool that can do that. Because there are many tools that meet that bar of like you put in 15 minutes and you feel like a dramatic step function changed to [crosstalk 00:57:06]-


Marc Champagne:

Big time, big time.


Daniel Scrivner:

I'm really excited to hear your answer to these next three questions. And these are so my favorite. The first is super simple. What is your definition of success?


Marc Champagne:

I love that. This is evolved over the years for me. What feels right as we speak now is, success to me is waking up feeling happy, motivated and excited for the day. I don't want to make it any more complicated than that. There's so many different things that can happen throughout the day and throughout your life and whatnot. But for me, at least if I can feel like that every day probably means I'm doing the right type of things, the right type of people are in my life. I'm going to stick with that.


Daniel Scrivner:

I think that's a great, simple litmus test. This one, I might know what your answer's going to be. I'll be curious. So we asked this question of every guest and this is one of my all time favorite questions. And it's just, what is one of your favorite failures? And we're trying to get at is something that didn't work. And typically, obviously when something doesn't go the way that we think it will, it's a failure. But what I love about this question is it's trying to uncover, what's something valuable that you took away from that experience and how would that maybe propel you in a better direction?


Marc Champagne:

Yeah. You're probably going to guess what I'm going to say. No doubt, the biggest and my favorite failure is creating an app that reached 86 million people then having to delete that business and app from the store. The most pain, obviously the most amount of development, self-development and growth. But the perfect example in the situation I've already mentioned. I am pumped to be behind the camera here with you and energize and having these conversations and that's all because of that scenario.


Daniel Scrivner:

And you've had a particularly interesting example there where I can't think of anyone that's had that same, it's not a failure-


Marc Champagne:

No one has had that [crosstalk 00:58:59]-


Daniel Scrivner:

... that happens to many people. No. It's a notable. And then the last question is just about gratitude. And the question is what are you most grateful for in this phase of your life?


Marc Champagne:

Just to have an incredible support system and people around me that throughout what we just talked about, essentially, we're there 100% the whole way. I think of the acknowledgements in my book. And I've re-read those a few times. Those are the people that were there and they have been there for a decade plus and includes my family and everyone. But yeah, it's that close circle.


Marc Champagne:

My five-year-old too and I've got another one on the way, but my five-year-old, there was a dedication in there to him that I hope once he's old enough and his mind is ready to consume the type of work in that book, that he knows that man, he had such influence in the words, in that book. You know this with your kids. They're so optimistic. They're not jaded with-


Daniel Scrivner:

They're amazing little humans.


Marc Champagne:

It's stunning. It's inspiring to me to see kids grow and just have such fresh perspective. So surround yourself with awesome kids, surround yourself with good friends, good coworkers, family and the rest takes care of itself.


Daniel Scrivner:

It's a good way to meet that litmus test of being excited to get up in the morning, every single day-


Marc Champagne:

Exactly.


Daniel Scrivner:

Well, thank you so much Marc. This has been wonderful to be able to connect with you. I've loved getting to chat in the two conversations we've had. So I just really appreciate the time.


Marc Champagne:

Oh, right back at you.




On Outlier Academy, Daniel Scrivner explores the tactics, routines, and habits of world-class performers working at the edge—in business, investing, entertainment, and more. In each episode, he decodes what they've mastered and what they've learned along the way. Start learning from the world’s best today. 

Explore all episodes of Outlier Academy, be the first to hear about new episodes, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

Daniel Scrivner and Mighty Publishing LLC own the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of the Outlier Academy podcast, with all rights reserved, including Daniel’s right of publicity.

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