“Some parts of the design process and user research, depending on how it's done, just aren't necessary, and you can skip them or move more quickly and still achieve a great outcome.” – Mike Clare
Mike Clare is Founder and CEO of Mood Health, an online platform providing psychiatry, talk therapy, and medication management for depression and anxiety. Mike was previously Director at Juxtapose, the design firm responsible for the branding of trendy companies like Care/of, Orchard, and Great Jones. His background in experiential design helped him create an inclusive customer experience at Mood Health.
Topics discussed with Mike Clare
- 00:02:04 – Mike’s experience designing at Juxtapose
- 00:08:33 – Moving from design to entrepreneurship
- 00:19:57 – Advice for new founders
- 00:22:53 – Superpowers and struggles
- 00:27:02 – Daily habits, exercise, and plant care
- 00:29:01 – Recommended books
- 00:32:40 – Psychedelics in mental health care
Mike Clare Resources
Books Recommended by Mike Clare
- Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up by Jerry Colonna
- Principles by Ray Dalio
- In Praise of Shadows by Junichiro Tanizaki
- Wabi-Sabi for Artists, Designers, Poets & Philosophers by Leonard Koren
Transcript
Daniel Scrivner:
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of Outlier Academies' Playbook Series, where each week we sit down with an elite performer, from iconic founders to world renowned investors and bestselling authors, to dive into the tactics, routines, and habits that got them to the top of their game, all in less than 30 minutes. I'm Daniel Scrivner. And on the show today, I sit down with Mike Clare, founder of Mood Health. Mood is reimagining mental healthcare and opening up access to anyone with an internet connection, solving the mental healthcare wasteland that currently affects over half the people in the United States. In this episode, we explore what Mike learned from his years at Juxtapose, helping launch and scale incredible companies like Care Of, Great Jones, Perch, and Tent. Mike's transition from industrial designer to CEO and his advice for others looking to make the same design to CEO leap. What he learned at Juxtapose that he still uses today, including why he spends so much time interviewing customers, as well as his favorite books, daily routine, superpowers and so much more.
Daniel Scrivner:
You can find the notes and transcript for this episode at outlieracademy.com/89. For more on Mood Health, visit moodhealth.com. For more from Mike you'll just have to re-listen to this episode or episode 86 of our spotlight series, as he isn't on Twitter or social. With that, please enjoy my conversation with Mike Claire of Mood Health.
Daniel Scrivner:
Welcome back to Outlier Academy, Mike. I'm super excited to have you on to talk about tactics. So thanks for joining me.
Mike Clare:
Yeah, thanks for having me back.
Daniel Scrivner:
So I want to start by talking a little bit about Juxtapose. So, we spent in kind of the deep dive portion of the interview, talking about your background, started out as a designer strategist, and are now a CEO. And in between you spent a number of years at Juxtapose, which is a venture studio, responsible for incredible companies like Care Of, Great Jones, Orchard, Perch, Intend. So can you just share a bit about your role and your time at Juxtapose to give everyone some context, before I ask a few more questions?
Mike Clare:
Yeah, it was a great experience and got to touch a lot of things. And so the model was generally that we would come up with ideas for new businesses, then do a ton of diligence, so both on the commercial side and user front, and then bring on a CEO and co-founder who was a right fit for the business and was excited to build something great. And then we would work with them to get them to series A and beyond, and then start working on the next thing. And so within that, it was a small team of five full-time employees, and I was responsible for, involved in all of it, but then responsible for a lot of the user understanding, making sure that when we came up with an idea that there was actually user value there. And then once we brought on a CEO and co-founder, helping to establish the brand and product and get to product market fit and make sure that we were again, building something that actually resonated with customers. And then finally, long term establishing just a culture of design centricity and consumer centricity within each of the brands.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. Which you can clearly see. So if anyone's interested, definitely go to juxtapose.com, because all the brands are very design centric. And so one, it's amazing. It's a small five person team. But two, I think my experience has been, it's hard enough to embed design really deeply into the core of a company for one company, let alone a whole family of companies.
Mike Clare:
Yes. Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to the CEOs of all the companies because really ultimately it's CEO buy-in that makes a huge difference. But a lot of the role was kind of helping to get the CEOs to truly believe that there was value in design, there was value in consumer centricity and that it can actually help them achieve their other goals, which helped then carry things through.
Daniel Scrivner:
How did you go about that? Was that something of, I don't know, over time, through a process, kind of just proving it out for people. What was your experience trying to get people to believe and buy into that?
Mike Clare:
I think a lot of the training for that came from my role right before working at Juxtapose, which was at a tech consultancy that was really about delivering digital products and just cranking them out really fast. And then I was trying to infuse design and design centricity and consumer centricity and user research and no one was having it when I first started. And so I spent three years just what felt like bashing my head against a wall, trying to convince people the care. But in that process also learned to have more empathy for non-designers and for the goals that they have and better understand how to match design, branding, user understanding, with the goals they had to try to get them through.
Mike Clare:
So one of my favorite moments at one of the Juxtapose portfolio companies was the CEO starting. And I was like, "Hey, I do design, brand, user centricity and we should do some user research and talk to customers." And they're like, "We don't need to do any of that. Let's build, let's see what happens and we can iterate." And then spent a few understanding what their big questions were for the business and what was really scary to them and where the big unknowns were and then outlined how user research could answer some, but not all, but some of them. And then two days later we got on a plane to go to Texas to do user research in homes with customers and just a complete 180. And again, it was just really about understanding what they're trying to accomplish and then making sure design isn't too precious, where it would become a huge three month long strategy sprint before actually doing anything else. But I think those two things together can really help.
Daniel Scrivner:
I love that example because I think it hits the nail on the head in terms of why a lot of people are hesitant, which is that they see design as this like fluffy, either you disappear for a long period of time and suddenly you appear with some answers or it's like this fluffy overly wrought thing where no progress is hap and it's just a lot of experimentation and I don't think that's the case at all. And I think it also goes to the point too of, designers getting out of their bubble and learning how to speak to a bigger problem or a bigger vision or just the business overall as opposed to just the UI or this quirk or why is this a pixel over.
Mike Clare:
Yeah. And I think too, like just being willing to do something that you know to be wrong or a bad idea and just seeing how it goes. So I think prior to, my first job out of school was design strategy at a consultancy and they would be these half million to million dollar projects that would last three to six months to come up with a design strategy. And that was often three words, like simple, human, friendly and then some broad concepts beyond that. And it was the belief that all interviews needed to be in home and that you needed to write a really scientific screener and it turned into this three month thing. And then I was taught that that's how things had to go.
Mike Clare:
And then again, in the tech consultancy that I worked at, where it was like that wasn't an option. They're like, "Okay, you can do some user research if you can do it in the next 48 hours." And then great, just try it, see how you can make that fit and see what happens. And then I think from that, just helped me understand that some parts of the design process and user research, depending on how it's done, just aren't necessarily necessary and you can really skip them or move more quickly and still achieve a great outcome.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. Practical, rational designers. That's a good thing. Okay. So I want to ask just a couple of questions around that, which is one, for you, this is partially your experience at Juxtapose of going from being a designer, strategist to obviously becoming the CEO of Mood. And I assume you learned a lot and picked up a lot while you were there. What were some of the aha moments where a light bulb went off where you suddenly realized either something interesting or novel about launching a business, something interesting or novel about scaling a business? What were just a couple of things that you still think about today from that time?
Mike Clare:
There's a lot, but I think one of the key things is just how important hiring is and that if there's an area you don't know about, that doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't get involved in that business or you shouldn't try to start that company, but it does probably mean you need to bring on someone who does know a lot about it. And so I think with all the portfolio companies that we helped build at Juxtapose hiring, especially the first few executives was like-
Mike Clare:
Especially the first few executives was like, one of the most impactful things that we did in making sure we got it right. So I think now being a CEO, it's a lot of really admitting to myself and to the rest of the company, what I'm not good at. So, I am not good at clinical operations, but my co-founder Betsy is incredible at clinical operations. And so investing the time and in that case money, I helped, I worked with a recruiter because I don't know a lot of clinical ops people in my network and it was so worth it. I think having the right person makes a huge difference.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. It's a great example. Is there anything, I guess you could give an example of what you did at Mood. Okay. Let's move on and talk about kind of the transition from being a designer, to being a CEO. And part of the reason I want to talk about this is I think you're a really remarkable example where you have really deep design expertise, but you also now have many years of being involved building businesses and this is something, I'm having more of the conversations today. I'm hearing from more designers that want to make that leap. And so I want to spend some time here and kind of the first question I want to ask was how intentional was that move? Did you always know early on that you wanted to be a CEO or was this something that you kind of either stumbled into or got more comfortable with over time?
Mike Clare:
Yeah, absolutely not. When I was a kid, when people would ask like, "What do you want to do when you grow up?" I had a million answers, but my dad always owned his own business and just saw how hard that is. And I was like, "I don't know, but I don't want to work for myself and I don't want to own my own business." And fast forward and here I am. It was not an intentional transition. I am generally pretty low ego and don't need to have like a CEO title. And I think what happened was, I would always get frustrated in design projects where someone would hand down mandate. And I would always question like, "Why does this need to exist? The problem that this is supposed to be solving does not seem like it would be solved by this problem. Where are these decisions coming from?"
Mike Clare:
And so I was always curious to get kind of one step back in the process to understand the why, and then actually have influence, or be able to influence that decision. Because to me that's half of design is choosing what gets designed at the first place. I kept then just stepping back further and further from there. And what was amazing about Juxtapose and kind of the context there is that it was designed, yes, but it was like, you really do need to understand the whole context, the whole environment, to be able to know what the right decisions are within that space. And then I think the biggest catalyst was like, this was a business that I just had to start. And I think any really mission driven company... I've talked to a lot of my friends who are also founders about this and a lot of people were not wanting to be CEOs and they were just like, "This thing needs to exist."
Mike Clare:
And one of my friends described it as like, "Look, you care more about this than anyone else in the world. Therefore, you should be the CEO." And I think within the first few years of company's life that care and like, giving a crap is so much of what a CEO needs to do, because most CEOs start off without really knowing how to start a business or what they're doing, or it's just a lot of figuring things out and having that motivation, having that dedication, having that vision is so powerful, in especially that phase. I think that is more meaningful than almost anything else.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. It makes me think of, there's a common term I really like about skin in the game and almost feels like you need soul in the game, those early days. Your whole heart has to be in it, because they're one, it's a slog. And for any founder you've talked to... I had a founder on recently who's was an investor before starting his latest company and got to see super intimately by working with a bunch of amazing founders, that even for the best founders, it is really, really, really hard. And so the way he equated it was, he was like, "I had to find a problem that was interesting enough that I was willing to put the gun in my mouth and pull the trigger." And I was like, "Well, yeah, that's a little morbid, but I get it."
Mike Clare:
I mean, there are all these founder groups where founders get together and talk about how it's going. And there are these kind of private communities and that people end up talking very openly and talking again to my founder, friends, almost everyone in all of their founder groups is just, it's a lot of pain and it is hard and there needs to be something that's really, really driving you to do it. And otherwise, most people who kick off the process and don't have that fire in them are just going to decide kind of intelligently that there's probably better ways to... Better jobs to get better ways to make money and end up getting a job, which I think is totally legitimate and a great decision for 99% of people. And then some people just have to do it.
Daniel Scrivner:
They have to take on the pain for whatever reason... For whatever reason that is. So, the next question I want to ask was, I think generally when you talk about a designer CEO or a CEO that's been a designer, it's pretty easy to think of the amazing parts or what would be good about some of what the design background becoming a CEO. What are some of the struggles? And I think what I'm trying to get at there is like, my experience of that has been, there's kind of a lot of your brain, you have to rewire or reconfigure a little bit. Even some of the things you're talking about around like be willing to do something, even if you think it's going to be terrible, just to see. As one example, how would you talk about that? What has it been like for you to go through that transition and what have you had to adapt to?
Mike Clare:
I think one of the biggest downsides is that we have an incredible head of design, Quinn Fenlon. And I think I annoy the crap out of him sometimes, because being a designer in a company that's led by a designer, it's... Clinical operations, I'm not going to have a super strong opinion about like, meeting schedules for the clinicians. It's like... Whereas design, if the color or the font or the tone doesn't feel quite right to me, I'm going to have a strong opinion. And I think that is, it's something that I am constantly working on controlling and getting better at. Like, it's kind of not my job anymore. And I really need to instead hire the right people and support them in them designing and building the right things. But it's hard.
Mike Clare:
But then I think otherwise, the transition from non, or from a designer to CEO, for me, it's been a long transition. It's been like 10 years of, I think the last real design work that I did was maybe five years ago. And then since then it's been a lot of transitioning away and learning about other things and getting involved in other things. And so I do think there's just like a tremendous amount to learn about other parts of business that can be really valuable or you bring on folks that do know what they're doing and find complimentary skill sets. Because I do think there are a handful of design led companies that have designer CEOs. And really again, if you have that passion, you have that vision. If you're good at hiring people, then you generally have what it takes to be able to build a company.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. One of the ways I've thought about it is, at the root and it depends on your role, because when you say design too, it's a massive umbrella and there are a lot of different things that go... Kind of live underneath that. But you know, one way that I've thought about it is you're just going up the kind of leverage stack where clearly as a designer, when you're working on a company, you're working on problems, oftentimes pretty narrowly scope, depending on the size of the company of, you're just focused on the iOS experience or the web experience or the branding or the graphic design. And obviously as you kind of go up to leading a design team and then becoming a CEO, you're still taking the world view of you're bringing a bunch of people, you're bringing a bunch of parts together to create something kind of new and amazing, but your medium and everything you're working with is completely different. But I do think that there's something really helpful, hold a latch onto there of like, you're still creating Mood. You're just doing it with people and you're doing it with ideas and culture. Does that resonate with you?
Mike Clare:
Oh definitely. Yeah. I think that's in a lot of ways, I feel like I still identify as a designer more than a business person and to your point, it's a similar process of you kind of understand a set of challenges and problem-
Mike Clare:
You kind of understand a set of challenges and problems. You understand the people that you're trying to serve and what their goals are. You understand all the constraints. And then, within that, it's like, "Okay, what is the solution that is going to resolve all these issues, and then how do you layer on top of that something that's really amazing and wonderful," and that kind of problem solving, putting things together, assembling different parts. To me, it's the same between whether it's like making a website or designing a physical product or bringing together a team of people to create a service or an experience.
Mike Clare:
The definition of design is so broad these days. But I think a lot of the CEOs that I worked closely with at Juxtapose, like Doug Hudson, the CEO of Tend, does not have a background in design. But he is such an experiential thinker and has an eye for aesthetics and for quality, and he can help support a group of people dreaming something up and making it happen. Again, to me, it's just very similar to the design process.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. Even the way you talked about that, like an experiential thinker, because a lot of design too is just thinking and envisioning and trying to think about, one, what's there today but, two, what you could create and what it takes to get there. Last question on this topic, and then I want to ask just a couple of questions just about you. I know there is going to be people listening to this episode that are a designer that are interested in your background and your story. What advice would you have, if you were sitting down with a designer who is interested in making that transition? I mean, we've already talked about gradient shifting over a long period of time, recognizing what you're not good at, bringing on people. What super meta advice would you give that person in terms of how to think about that transition? What words of wisdom would you say?
Mike Clare:
I think just be incredibly open-minded and really try to learn and absorb everything you can around you in whatever context you're in at that moment. I think so much of what I've been able to learn is not from the work that I was doing directly, but just keeping an eye on the work that everyone else around me was doing, trying to get involved in more and more, and just get a better understanding of how the whole system worked.
Mike Clare:
But then the other thing is, again, with being a CEO, I'm really glad that I had the experience that I did and didn't just start a company straight out of college. But that was just because I wanted to learn how other people did things before trying it myself. But then, starting a company, there's so many unknowns. There's so much you need to figure out. I think it's more about having the, again, open-mindedness and hustle to be able to continuously learn, reach out for help when you need it, ask experts, bring on other people who really know things. And so, it's something that if there are ways that you can become more prepared, do it. If not, then just dive in and it's going to be a lot of work, but there's ways to figure it out.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. I love that point around just being super open-minded and trying to learn because, I mean, I do think at a super simplistic level, one of the things that's happening when you go from being a designer to a CEO is a designer is responsible for one silo within a company of which there are many, many, many other silos, from finance to operations, to sales, product management. And so, I think a lot of it is just, one, brushing up on having a basic level of knowledge and understanding across all of those. And then, to your point, I think a lot of it almost sounds like a piece of advice would be one of the biggest muscles you're going to flex is the I don't know muscle.
Mike Clare:
Yeah.
Daniel Scrivner:
Then, using that to either bring on people or recognizing that you don't know and asking great questions.
Mike Clare:
Yeah. I think another practical tidbit is I didn't do Y Combinator and now, knowing more people who did, it seems like a great, amazing program. They have a lot of great online resources and YouTube videos and content where they really do lay out kind of end to end how to start a company. I think there are a lot of practical steps in starting a company and things that you just don't know where to even get started. And so, I think they have a lot of great resources for giving a broad overview.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. I haven't checked out their video content, but we will look for that and link to that in the show notes. Okay, so now I want to transition, just ask you a couple of questions. The first one is probably obvious, but I'm hoping maybe you have a non-obvious answer to it. What do you think are your superpowers when you think about how you show up during the day? Where do you get those from and how do those just show up in your day to day work?
Mike Clare:
Yeah, I think it's understanding people and empathy. I think that's been the constant thread throughout my career and throughout my life is I just, for better or worse, am hyper observant. Sometimes it is distracting and overwhelming because there's just so much that I'm trying to take in simultaneously. But I think just being able to have a conversation with someone, be able to quickly read them, understand kind of how they're reacting to things and be able to get some more depth into who they are, what they're looking for, what's driving them and then be able to now create things that they react well to.
Mike Clare:
I think, a lot of it, I've talked to some other folks that also have kind of that deep empathy almost to a point where it's uncomfortable. I think a lot of it is, for me, it was growing up in a situation where there was just a lot for me to figure out, on my own, about how the world works, how to interact with other people and kind of wanting to understand the humans around me and the world around me without having a lot of structure and stability in my own upbringing. I think that's caused this hyper vigilance around understanding people as a survival method and, luckily, I've been able to turn it into something productive.
Daniel Scrivner:
But the origins of that are... Well, but I think it's really important to talk about that because I think a lot of the strengths that we all have, a lot of it, a lot of strengths are born out of just not awesome things, not awesome experiences, which I think is a great thing to reflect on every time and time again.
Mike Clare:
Yeah, there's a book called Reboot, by the founder of Reboot, and so much of it's like, "Look, founders largely have childhood trauma and a lot of what drives people to be excellent at a thing is usually driven by some sort of challenge or trauma." It's tough, but I've seen it to be true with myself and a lot of other founders that I know.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. At least you get to take something out of those experiences that you can use for the rest of your life.
Mike Clare:
Yeah.
Daniel Scrivner:
On the flip side, what do you struggle with and how have you either gotten better or worked around those things over time?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's something I'm talking a lot more about now, but just depression. It's kind of this constant layer in my life that has been kind of an ongoing side project of like, "How do I live with this, try to make it as good as possible, and not let it get in the way of the things that I want to do." Sometimes I'm better at it than others and I'll go through waves of things being good and being able to be super productive. And then, I'll go through waves where I'm not feeling so great. But I think that, largely, the last 10 or so years, it's been focusing a lot more on making decisions in my life to help support and get out of depression. And so, everything from starting to do a little mindfulness to moving out of New York because I had seasonal depression and moving to, first, San Francisco and now Miami where, again, a whole range of things that can impact and help resolve at least my depression, but constantly trying to chip away at it.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah, and Miami will all the vitamin D, I would hope that that would play a positive role.
Mike Clare:
It helps. Yeah.
Daniel Scrivner:
When it comes to habits and routines, you talked a little bit about this in your last answer, but what are some of the things you do every day, every week, every month, or just occasionally, because I want to recognize that people aren't robots. They don't have all the same checklist every single day. But what are some of the things that you've incorporated that help you show up as your best self day to day?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. Again, it's something that I've...
Daniel Scrivner:
Did that help you show up as your best self day to day?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. Again, it's something that I've started thinking much more about in the last 10 years, and have been taking much more seriously. But I think, again, I walk a lot. I don't love hardcore exercise. I'm not a marathon sprinter by any means. But I do love to wander, and spend time, whether it was when I was in New York city, wandering around the city, or here in Miami, just enjoying the nice weather, and being outside. I think that has been incredibly important to me.
Mike Clare:
Having plants is another, where it's like, I think especially years back, when I was in a depressive episode, having something that forces you to care for something else has been really amazing. And then, spending time with friends and loved ones. I always noticed that if I'm going through a phase of working way too much, and disconnecting from friends and social life, I genuinely think that I need to balance the amount of time that I'm doing work with not work in order to actually be able to produce something good. I think if someone's in a terrible mood, or not feeling great, the work they're going to create is also not going to be good. So I think even when there's a ton of stress for what's going on at work, making that time, and making that space to have an enjoyable life is really important.
Daniel Scrivner:
Well, I love that you talked about that that shows up in every aspect of your work, which one shouldn't be surprising at all. Imagine you went to a restaurant, and the chef has a terrible day, do you feel like he's going to cook the best meal he's ever made? Probably not. But it is amazing that that's still somewhat novel. Okay. Two final questions. The first one is around books, and we talked about Reboot, which is awesome. So I'll link to that in the show notes. Are there any other books that have had a big impact on the way you think or work?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. So it's probably the least designerly answer I could give, but Principles, by Ray Dalio, is incredible. And I read it as... Sometimes I just do the things that I think I'll hate doing just for the sake of doing it, and I was like, "Okay. Ray Dalio, hedge fund manager. I don't know if this is for me." But I read it, and it's incredible. And I think there's a lot of truths in it, and principles, as the title suggests, that are really high level and applicable to a lot of situations, and have really helped me kind of articulate some things that I already believed in. And then, also introduce some new ones. There's a more aesthetics book that I read in college, that I really love, and had an impact on how I view a lot of things, which is In Praise Of Shadows, which is [crosstalk].
Daniel Scrivner:
Such an esoteric pick. That's amazing.
Mike Clare:
It's incredible. It's about Japanese aesthetics in the early 19 hundreds, as I believe. And there was a wave of changing from kind of a Japanese aesthetic to a more Western aesthetic, and going from dimly lit and a more subtle, to bright and really missing a lot of what made traditional Japanese aesthetics beautiful. I think it's been really applicable to just a lot of decision I'm making around how to create experiences for people, where most of Western culture is about like, "Okay. How do we get someone to check out in the fewest steps possible?" It's all about efficiency. Whereas I think with Japanese aesthetics, it's really about like, "What is the experience you want to create?" And often, it's not the most direct route, and there's some inefficiency in there. But I think, yeah, it's always been one that I really love.
Daniel Scrivner:
Have you read wabi-sabi at all too?
Mike Clare:
It's one of those books that you owe, and then you... I've moved like five different apartments and...
Daniel Scrivner:
It's come with you to each new place?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. It's also, it's like a... I don't know, like a hundred page book, if that [crosstalk].
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. No, it's very similar. Well, the only reason I brought it up is I feel like, I'm a massive fan of Japanese aesthetics, a huge nerd. And anyways, and so both of those books, I feel like they're great complements. So for anyone that interested in In Praise Of Shadows, wabi-sabi is also great. Okay. Last question. What are you obsessed or fascinated by at the moment? What can't you stop thinking about?
Mike Clare:
So one is just like, there's a lot of interesting things going on in the world of mental health, which is where a lot of my brain is, but psychedelics, right now, are having a moment. And it's really interesting and exciting. I'm usually not a psychedelics advocate in just general, but I think it's really incredible to finally have some new scientifically-backed solutions for solving some of these challenges that people have been experiencing for years, and years, and years. So it's one of the first real developments within mental health in the last 20 years, and really promising. Really early stages, so there's still a lot unknown, a lot to be figured out. But I think it's going to be a really amazing phase for mental health, just having more solutions out there.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. What applications excite you about psychedelics? Because the one that comes to mind for me is, I've heard a lot of positive research being done around PTSD, and that that's been very challenging to treat. Are there others?
Mike Clare:
Yeah. So I think there's that, there's end of life. So there's really interesting evidence around how psychedelics can help with someone who is facing end of life. And it's amazing how someone can go in with this overbearing weight of this really incredibly tragic reality, and then come out at peace. And then, there's also just a lot around treatment resistant depression. So antidepressants are tricky, they're not one size fits all. A lot of people need to try multiple. And then, some people try a third, and a fourth, and a fifth, and they're still feeling really depressed. And psychedelics... So there's ketamine therapy, that has been FDA approved, for specifically treatment resistant depression. And I think it's just opening up a path for a lot of people who thought that there were just no other options to try.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. And to be able to treat, I think the end of life example is fascinating. That's a huge thing I'm excited about. It's amazing to me that we're still at a point where, I think, end of life for so many people is just super shitty. You know, you could be states away from somebody, when they're in the end of their life, dealing with that news can be really terrible. I'm excited that we're starting to talk about those things, and thinking about what other ways maybe are a little bit more humane, a little bit more beautiful, a little bit more incorporated in families when that happens. So it's really exciting. Thank you so much for joining me again, Mike. This has been amazing.
Mike Clare:
Thank you.
Daniel Scrivner:
And I will link to... You do not have a Twitter account, which I got wrong last time. But I will link to Mood Health, and I highly encourage anyone who's listening, who's either looked for therapy, or has had a therapist or a psychiatrist they've been looking at, to check out Mood Health, and absolutely, if you haven't listened to the full length interview where we focus all on what Mike and his team are doing with Mood Health, I think it's incredible. So thank you so much.
Mike Clare:
Thank you.
Daniel Scrivner:
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to everything we discussed, as well as the notes and transcript for this episode at outlieracademy.com/89. For more from Mike Clare, listen to episode 86, where Mike joins me on our spotlight series to go deep on Mood Health, including why 50% of Americans live in a mental healthcare wasteland, why the current mental healthcare system is broken, and how Mood Health is reimagining that system. Including why they refuse to make any money prescribing medication, and how they've uncrated an entirely new patient experience from the ground up.
Daniel Scrivner:
You can find more incredible interviews from the founders of Superhuman, Levels, Rally, Commonstock, and Primal Kitchen, as well as bestselling authors in the world's smartest investors, at outlieracademy.com. You can now also find us on YouTube at youtube.com/outlieracademy. On our channel, you'll find all of our full length interviews, as well as our favorite short clips from every episode, including this one. From our entire team at outlier academy, we hope you enjoyed the show, and we hope to see you right here, next week, on our playbook series.
On Outlier Academy, Daniel Scrivner explores the tactics, routines, and habits of world-class performers working at the edge—in business, investing, entertainment, and more. In each episode, he decodes what they've mastered and what they've learned along the way. Start learning from the world’s best today.
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Daniel Scrivner and Mighty Publishing LLC own the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of the Outlier Academy podcast, with all rights reserved, including Daniel’s right of publicity.
